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Very tight Argo centreboard

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Technique
Forum Discription: 'How to' section for dinghy questions and answers
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13948
Printed Date: 18 Aug 22 at 4:24pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Very tight Argo centreboard
Posted By: Chillidoggy
Subject: Very tight Argo centreboard
Date Posted: 02 Jun 22 at 1:38pm
My Topper Argo has a very tight centreboard, so much so that two of us are unable to pull it down into position. Laid the boat on its side, and looked under the boat. I could pull the board out by hand, but it was really tight, with a loud squealing noise as I pulled it into the down position, and the same stowing it.

There are two stainless plates in the boat either side of the board which have three screws in that might be removable, but I canít find any info online on how to deal with the problem or how to perhaps remove the centreboard so I can see what might be happening, or how the board is pivoted, and would appreciate any advice.



Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 02 Jun 22 at 3:39pm
If there's no sign of a bolt through the case then I have seen (although I can't find one on line ) a setup where two plates as you describe are the outward sign of a pair of plates that go each side of the board and carry the pivot.

However I'd start with Topper. An important question, of course, is whether its always been stiff or this is something new. You did, I presume, inspect carefully to see if a stone or something has got in there are is causing the problem.



Posted By: Chillidoggy
Date Posted: 02 Jun 22 at 6:34pm
Iíve only just bought the boat, itís secondhand, so itís my first experience afloat with it, which ended in a wasted launching as we couldnít move the centreboard much. I havenít had any in-depth look at it as yet.


Posted By: ColPrice2002
Date Posted: 03 Jun 22 at 6:46am
Hi,
The Ago centreboard is held in place by a stainless steel bracket - as you suggested.
Remove the screws, and with the boat on its side, extend the centreboard and pull the board upwards.

IIRC, the Argo uses furry pads stuck to the inside of the case to act as a friction device. Iíd suggest you make sure that these havenít become dislodged and jamming normal operation.
If the screws holding the strap wonít tighten, use drywall plugs!

Colin


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Jun 22 at 7:05am
Topper's web site lists this part, which I believe are the brackets that go each side of the plate.

https://toppersailboats.com/product/centreboard-bracket/

I'd definitely start by consulting Topper, but failing anything useful I think I would start by double checking for any foreign objects in the case. I would certainly ask for confirmation in how to remove the board, and whether there have been any issues like this before.


Thereafter, well there are all sorts of scenarios that occur to me, some more expensive than others. A hard grounding, for instance might distort those plates and cause issues. Did you get the boat privately or from a company? If the latter then there's definitely a case for discussion!



Posted By: ColPrice2002
Date Posted: 03 Jun 22 at 4:03pm
At a sail training centre, we removed the centreboard by removing the screws and pulling the cradle upwards. The centreboard had been hit hard - by another dinghy while capsized - and the cradle bent!

Colin


Posted By: Chillidoggy
Date Posted: 03 Jun 22 at 4:53pm
Thanks so much for the replies, Iím going to have a go at removing the centreboard next week, will report back as to what I find.


Posted By: Chillidoggy
Date Posted: 22 Jun 22 at 8:30am
I found loads more packing strips in the slot than there should be, replaced it with new strips, and it now works perfectly.

I'm now looking for any tips on tuning, mast rake in particular. Once again, I cannot find anything on the web, and there seems to be no Class Association, so I don't know if it has a PY. any help on this would be welcome!


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 22 Jun 22 at 4:41pm
The PY system has next to nothing for the Argo. Not even enough to make a suggestion, well, between 1200 and 1250 is as far as I would go. All you can do is to make a list of vaguely similar boats and try and slot it in. Length is the most important factor by a mile, then weight and sail area.



Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 23 Jun 22 at 9:04am
It is 8" longer than a L@ser Vago with a bigger rig and weighs about the same. The Vago had a PN of 1074 in 2016 so the Argo should be slightly faster*. That said my Fuller Formula spreadsheet gives a Fuller Number for the Vago of 1148 and for the Argo of 1080. Those numbers maybe a bit generous but I think around 1100 would be a good starting point if you can persuade your race committee...

* Just looked at the RS Venture (bigger) and Quest (smaller) and Great Lakes give them 1080 and 1130 respectively so 1100 seems about right for the Argo.


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Chillidoggy
Date Posted: 23 Jun 22 at 10:10am
The only PY I found after extensive searching was one at 1075, and one at 1090. Having sailed a Laser 2000 for years, I would put it around that kind of performance, but I have no proof whatsoever, it's just a feeling, and I have no idea how one would arrive at a calculated figure.


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 23 Jun 22 at 3:11pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

It is 8" longer than a L@ser Vago with a bigger rig and weighs about the same. The Vago had a PN of 1074 in 2016 so the Argo should be slightly faster*. That said my Fuller Formula spreadsheet gives a Fuller Number for the Vago of 1148 and for the Argo of 1080. Those numbers maybe a bit generous but I think around 1100 would be a good starting point if you can persuade your race committee...

* Just looked at the RS Venture (bigger) and Quest (smaller) and Great Lakes give them 1080 and 1130 respectively so 1100 seems about right for the Argo.

The Fuller number is only valid for conventional singlehanders.  Use it here at considerable risk!


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 23 Jun 22 at 3:23pm
Agreed, though I think it is still useful as a starting point for a boat with no published PN. My spreadsheet actually predicts the Blaze at 1001, 32 less than it's actual numbers but the Spice comes out at 926 so only 4 points below it's last PN (which is IMO about 30 points too low). When I get the time I'll put a few more two handers into the spreadsheet and see where they end up (FWIW it predicts 1047 for the Vago when it's last PN was 1074). I suspect the general upward creep in PNs means that an annual adjustment to the formula will be necessary. Mostly though it's just a bit of fun (just like handicap racing).

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: ColPrice2002
Date Posted: 23 Jun 22 at 5:13pm
Hi,

Glad you sorted out the centreboard problem - I suspect it's easy to just ad another strip rather than dig out the old ones!

Sail training centre I worked for had Argos - sailing with Jib and Mainsail was fairly pedestrian, ir's a heavy dinghy so it doesn't accelerate quickly, but is pretty stable. The Genniker, however, is huge! It seemed to be larger than main+jib so using that downwind will make a huge difference to the PY rating.
The Argo is part of the Topper products - their brochure give PY = 1095. There's no information on the RYA site.
The Argo is used for lots of training - perhaps it's not used for racing that much.

Colin


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 23 Jun 22 at 5:18pm
Having raced a 2000 against Argos and an Argo against 2000s, I can safely say the Argo is somewhat slower. Whilst the weight and length are similar, the hull is more flexible, the rig smaller and the main lacking the same power. Nice boat, though - the only one of the bigger roto boats I'd say that about, really, though I've not sailed the Quest enough to have an opinion.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 23 Jun 22 at 6:14pm
topper brochure has it listed at 1095


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 23 Jun 22 at 6:24pm
So the FN is not that far off LOL 

FWIW The white sails total 11.4m2 and the kite is 10.6 so about the same as the Quest and the 2000.


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 23 Jun 22 at 7:54pm
As usual, numbers only tell half the story, which is why the PYS is results based. Go sailing, see how you go as you get up to speed. But get that centreboard fixed first!

-------------
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Chillidoggy
Date Posted: 24 Jun 22 at 8:22am
The centreboard is fixed.Smile

I've agreed on 1095, with adjustments to results be made if necessary, or if RYA issues a PY for the Argo. From reading the replies, looking at sail areas quoted and your first-hand experiences, I'm thinking that the Argo gennaker is kind of its 'secret weapon', to be launched when possible to make up any lost time elsewhere!

Once again, thanks to all of you for taking time to comment.


Posted By: ColPrice2002
Date Posted: 25 Jun 22 at 9:07am
When I was instructing, the centre had a couple of Argos - we did have to have the floor strengthened - maybe they were early hulls,  maybe we used them hard, but the floors need reinforcing.
The "fun" activity was setting the jib tension - crew climbed onto the trolley handle and leant back on the forestay; crew 2 sweated up the halyard. Then you release the forestay, untie it and secure it near the mast. If there isn't enough jib tension you won't sail closehauled very well.
I always put a piece of electrical tape over the jib halyard cleat to prevent me from releasing it without thinking... "must reattach the forestay!" - otherwise the rig just hinges backwards.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 25 Jun 22 at 9:38am
For training at least is there any reason not to leave the forestay attached?



-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: ColPrice2002
Date Posted: 25 Jun 22 at 1:57pm
If you leave the forestay attached (it's tied round the beam across the bow) then it fouls the jib furling (gets wrapped into the jib); the genniker chute exits just below the beam so youve added more friction and roughness - the genniker is "delicate".

The forestay/jib furler problem exists on other dinghies (e.g. my Wanderer), but the halyard sheave and forestay attachment are significantly apart, the Argo has the forestay attachment just above the jib sheave.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 25 Jun 22 at 3:41pm
Thumbs Up Makes sense. It's a trait of some Laser boats too, Stratos, 2k and 3k to my sure knowledge but if you didn't need the kite or furler I suppose you could leave it as an extra bit of security. The Spice doesn't even have a forestay as it's a hog stepped mast.

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 27 Jun 22 at 2:34pm
The added bonus on the Argo is that there is no hook going to a tensioner, so if you catch the halyard, it doesn't just drop a few inches and then stop... I always tuck the halyard through the eye on the front of the nasty and tie a stopper knot.

A silly quirk, but still a nice boat.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: seasailor
Date Posted: 04 Jul 22 at 12:30pm
I have an RS Vision. The forestay is redundant when sailing, unless the jib halyard breaks, which did happen once!

If furling, there is every chance that the furler will foul the forestay and/or the kite halyard.

My solution is never to furl!


Posted By: ColPrice2002
Date Posted: 04 Jul 22 at 4:27pm
When I was instructing, it was very useful to be able to furl the jib. This allowed us to talk without the noise of a flapping jib!
Also meant that we could just furl the jib and sent students off without letting them feel overpowered.
Obviously, if you don't furl, you can leave the forestay in place. 

It just seemed odd to me that you can have a dinghy that needs a forestay to keep the mast up, but no attachment pint.

Colin



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